Mr. Palahniuk, do you think that the world is getting better or worse?
Better. Ultimately, everyone is acting out of what they feel is the
best choice. In a way, they’re all trying to improve the world. And I
think that those basic choices make the world a better place.
I wouldn’t have necessarily guessed that from the guy who wrote Fight Club. Do you think that attitude is reflected in your fiction?
To me, it’s a choice: whether to focus on the way things work out
beautifully, or to focus on the way things work out miserably. I always
skew to life continuing beyond the end of a story – people demonstrating
their own strength and potential and increasing that over the course of
the story. It’s hopeful, positive. Also, my stories tend to bring
people from isolation into community – with at least one other person,
usually with a whole community of people – so that they find themselves
accepted back by a world that they kind of fled from.
I can see that… But your stories still usually involve lots of sex and death.
I think they define one another. A comedy ends with a wedding, and a
tragedy ends with a funeral: you always have to juxtapose sex and death.
Like in
Fight Club the boy meets the girl in a support group
for terminally ill people. That’s why abortion occurs so frequently in
my stories. Abortion sort of synthesizes both sex and death. To have sex
and death placed as close to one another as possible is always a goal
of mine.
Is your life anywhere near as extreme as your fiction?
No, my life has been about living like a lump and looking like a
priest so that people will come up to me and tell me their most
appalling stories. They have to make their confession to somebody, and
it might as well be me. I like it when you’re not getting stories from a
publication or broadcast – those are stories that everyone will know –
but you’re getting the secret stories that you can only get from
individuals. In settings where people make confessions, like support
groups, or I used to love telephone or sex chatlines, you can listen for
hours to people discuss their fantasies or whatever private, horrible
thing they needed to process by talking it through.
How do you get people to tell you their darkest stories?
I call it using a little fish to get a big fish. I find one story,
one anecdote that I find really fascinating and I will introduce that
into conversation. And each time I tell that one small anecdote, there
will be someone who has a similar experience from their life, but much
more extreme. People compete when they have conversation, they want
their input to build on the previous contribution. So, the strange
anecdote that I throw out, which is sometimes something from my own
life, is instantly eclipsed by an almost identical but more extreme
version from someone else’s life. Then a third person will jump in and
eclipse that anecdote. I’m recognizing these common events that link
people in pretty much everyone’s lives, and I’m looking for the most
extreme versions of those.
Why the most extreme?
To illustrate that these things happen to everyone. You want to start
with something that establishes a comfortable precedent that people can
relate to, and then you want to move towards a version that is the
ultimate version of that common experience. Also, my writing teacher
told me to always take your reward up front, that the writing itself
should be so extreme, so wild, and so much fun that it doesn’t matter
whether or not you ever sell the book.
You once said that Fight Club was just The Great Gatsby updated a little. If Gatsby was about the Lost Generation of the ’20s, Fight Club about male disillusionment in the ’90s, what would it be in the current culture?
I wouldn’t even venture what the current culture is. I hate the idea
of writing or trying to address current events. By the time the writing
is finished, those current events will be outdated. Years ago, the first
time I ever visited my literary agent, he sheepishly brought out this
rolling cart filled with dozens of manuscripts about priests molesting
children, because that week that’s what was in the news. Everyone had
the same idea and they were all a complete waste of time. So, rather
than try to follow current events, my goal is to try and write something
new enough that it might possibly lead the culture rather than follow
the culture.
Then why does your new book Beautiful You refer directly to Fifty Shades of Grey?
It’s true, the working title of the book was
Fifty Shades of the Twilight Cave Bear Wears Prada.
I’m fascinated by the whole issue of arousal addiction, which seems to
be mostly a problem for young men – videogames, pornography… The idea
was to try and explore arousal addiction, but to do it in a comic,
off-hand way, by depicting it with women, the population least likely to
be subjected by it. I also wanted to borrow from all of those kind of
“chick lit” books and use all of those tropes that are viewed so
seriously.
Like what?
The lead character is a beautiful white girl and she’s got a pretty
black girl for her best friend, the black girl is always really sassy…
These tropes are thrown at us over and over, so I thought, “Let’s use
these tropes as a joke and see if people recognize them.”
I think they will. That’s why I would say you are definitely writing about our current moment.
I wanted to write about how so many of us, when we look back at the
major events in our lives, they’re not actually things that happened to
us. They’re our favorite movie, our favorite book, things that weren’t
full experiences; they were facilitated by a product that we bought. And
so, I wanted to write about that. That breaks my heart a lot.
Because people are just living by proxy?
Exactly. That they find an identity in a series of products, and the
experiences provided by those products, rather than by going out and
having strong, unique experiences of their own. Years ago I had to buy a
tombstone for my grandparents and the cemetery was showing me the new
trend, which was to get the logos of different products engraved on your
tombstone and that defined who you were in world. She was showing me
the tombstone of a teenage girl who had died in a car accident. She had
been a very good volleyball player, so her parents had had a Voit
volleyball engraved on her tombstone.
I find that extremely depressing.
My grandfather had been a farmer, so the same salesperson was showing
me tractors – John Deere tractors or International Harvester tractors –
that I could have engraved on my grandfather’s tombstone that would,
you know, define him for the ages. There were pages and pages of these
corporate logos that you could put on your tombstone, right by your
name, right by your birth and death dates. It kind of broke my heart.
This idea of people living their lives through a series of experiences
provided by products was a big part of the new book. I think that the
Millennials are struggling with coming up with goals and ideals of their
own.
I feel like gay rights is a big issue at the moment.
That’s one of the issues, but I would venture that that’s just
another manifestation of an equal rights issue, almost like a third wave
feminism, where you take women’s rights out into the larger world, and
fight for them. Beyond rights, we still need a new vision to drive us.
What might that be?
I’m still waiting for that to pop up in somebody’s head. That’s why
we have things like Burning Man. Events like Burning Man are the
laboratories where people go and experiment with social structure and
with identity. It’s out of these little laboratories that our new
culture will grow. And that’s why so many of my books are about these
little “liminoid” human experiments that are short-lived and are kind of
fun and exciting, like party crashing in
Rant, or
Fight Club.
It’s these “liminoid” laboratories that will give us that vision, that
new thing to quest for that isn’t just capitalism or Marxism. You’re
outside of it, and in a way, you’re outside of yourself. Everyone is
equal and everyone is forced to participate; you can’t just be a
spectator.
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